After six months of work, meetings with the authorities of European countries, the United States and Turkey and hearings all kinds -services information, ministers, heads of the Muslim Faith, prison staff, sociologists, local stakeholders – the Commission of Inquiry on the organization and the means to fight against jihadist networks Senate issued its report Wednesday, April 8.
Established in October, the Commission has adjusted its investigation in the light of what has been revealed in January the attacks on jihadist dies and drew 110 proposals. “I am committed to creating consensus. The 110 proposals were shared unanimously by all members of the commission,” said to “Obs” Jean-Pierre Sueur, Senator PS Loiret and Rapporteur.
Some items have therefore not been introduced because they were not the majority. Ethnic statistics, Muslim plots in cemeteries, or the prohibition of Arabic in the mosques for example. We thought about everything to be constitutional. “
In the preamble of this report, you highlight the” relatively late character of the involvement of the French authorities “in the fight against jihadist radicalization, a “French exception” you say, while our European neighbors have taken some measures much earlier than us. How can this ignition delay?
– The French authorities, as a whole, have not seen the extent of the phenomenon I can not explain it in comparison to other European countries, they have minimized unwittingly the problem.. in the beginning. We have not received early enough the monstrous nature of the French departure to Syria and Iraq.
In 2012 and 2013, it was thought to deal with individual cases. Between January 1, 2014 and March 9, 2015, the number increased by 84% and we identified 1,432 French nationals present in the Syrian-Iraqi combat zones. And that’s not counting those we were unable to recognize because we have no trace of their departure. Since it was exceptionally hard. We did well.
You tell: preventive policy against radicalization will not provide “spectacular results in the short term.” The battle will be long?
– France is set to work very effectively. Since the attacks in January, many announcements were made and decisions taken by the government. This very nervous reaction of the President and the Government is extremely positive and necessary.
But some of our compatriots think that this crisis will not last, at most a few months, and that will come out. It is a total illusion. Evil is deep, it will take a lot of determination to overcome. With our 110 proposals, we record it voluntarily in the long term and that is why we have attached great importance to prevention in this report.
According to your figures, 1,608 radicalization oping people were reported CNAPR (National Centre for assistance and prevention of violent radicalization). You advocate for every individual personal monitoring. Does he missed in the past?
– When we started working on this, it was simple mechanisms: one says that there are breeding grounds for radicalization as school dropout, the living conditions in some areas, unemployment, segregation … When we look closely, we can see that these criteria are not alone determinative.
There are probably correlations between situations despairs, emptiness, lack of opportunities, but it is not automatic. The subject defies simplistic analysis. That is why the eve of cells in the prefectures are not enough. It takes a referent person in the process of radicalization and the actually follow a systematic exchange with mayors, who are in outreach work everyday.
In order to prevent radicalization, we insist on the necessary training of teachers, social workers, educators, members of the judiciary, judges in each High Court, in the prefectures … We need a very sharp work, very tight on the ground.
Local actors have pointed to the difficulty in identifying young in the process of radicalization. You insist on the implementation of a shared frame of reference by all. How to develop such a grid avoiding stigmatization?
– You’re right, it is hard to imagine. I do not think there is a magic grid, unique. Some people have tried to sell us this, as if there was a mechanical problem. We used the word “grid”, it was wrong, it is simplistic, I speak rather behaviors beam: there must be exchanges between all field worker on the criteria, factors and signs of radicalization <. / span>
How to see a terrorist (at a US airport)
You advocate the possibility for a third party to notify a web host, content contrary to law, with a single click. Does there not a risk to attend a drift of suspicion and denunciation?
– You should know what you want. If you really want to detect apologies for terrorism and compel their disappearance, must not have the means. It may be unpleasant to ask people to report, but there is in the penal code that allows an arsenal punish false accusations.
You are very critical of the CNAPR, established in April 2014 to report such cases of radicalization …
– We visited, it goes wrong. The listening platform is made up of police reservists. Now there are people who are reluctant to call the police. Moreover, the center is open from 9:00 to 6:00 p.m., Monday to Friday. We preferred that this cell has an interdepartmental status, it is placed outside the premises of the police Beauvau and is working 24h / 24h.
The report addresses the question of the intelligence services for which you recommend including capacity building. The bill on the information that will be debated in mid-April arouses criticism from civil libertarians. What do you think
– The four proposals of the Commission of Inquiry the subject is accurate: they must be implemented under the supervision and under the conditions defined by the CNIL (French Data Protection Commission). Some committee members were opposed, some even proposed to review the data protection act.
This is not because he had these monstrous events in France that we must abandon the principles that ensure respect for privacy and personal data. Biggest victory terrorists would bring us to restrict the scope of our freedoms.
The intelligence services should have access to certain files, they have no access at present, such as Interpol, the stolen passports, or some files relating to the Department of Justice. But this must always be within the framework defined by the data protection act. On crossing files, the commission said, there may be researching a plurality of files but the clear condition that we do not like the United States.
The Americans practice as well said Jean-Jacques Urvoas, trawling, they are able to pump billions of data and cross. We are against that system, we are rather spearfishing: If there is a specific target, then we have the means to achieve it. We can intervene intrusive manner with respect to personal information only if there is a necessity and a check by the law or by the new commission that the law on intelligence plans to create.
You note that 200 French wanted to return to France. The issue of returns is outsourced in the report. The French authorities will they not again accuse another delay, while some countries such as Denmark have introduced de-radicalization programs of returners?
– The experience and data we have obtained is limited. It is clear that someone who returns from combat zones in first with the law, this is normal. Either he did nothing wrong and it is free but monitoring is necessary because the speech can hide the membership of a terrorist network. Either he committed crimes there, and it is normal that the statue justice. It can then be sent to prison.
The case of returns is to be taken very carefully. Some people keep coming back stereotyped speech repented as if we had taught them a text to hold. Those should arouse suspicion. The question is whether the returnee is a potential terrorist or not.
You advocate the separation of prisoners radicalized while the measure was the subject of reservations about its effectiveness …
– it was a good look is going to Fresnes prison, we went to the prison in Fleury Merogis. Our position is clear: radicalized people are detained in institutions for punishment so they must be in individual cells.
Two extreme solutions were presented to us: one is to make no distinction with other prisoners, in this case it is the risk of the spread of radicalization . The other is to make groups of detainees radicalized. The guards fear the pressure cooker because it may explode.
We found an intermediate solution: bring detainees radicalized by small isolated units of 10 to 15 people. This helps to avoid discrimination of radicalization and to have smaller groups with which one can conduct a work of de-radicalization.
Your report is not encrypted. What means do you intend to implement these recommendations?
– It is obvious that what is proposed at a cost, as is the bill on intelligence. It is proposed to strengthen the intelligence services, the SCRT the CNAPR, the services of financial control Tracfin, prison intelligence … If we do not strengthen these positions, if we do not make every effort to combat and reduce the movement that currently develops, it will cost a lot more.
Interview by Sarah Diffalah
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